If you do not have 30 minutes this week to watch the video, you may read the following article from Forbes magazine instead:
What do you think? Write a scholarly response about either the 30 minutes of this video or the article. In your paragraph, you need to tell me three things that you liked and three things that you didn't like. Finally, what do you think is the future of using recombinant viruses to treat cancer?
I thought the article was very interesting. I didn't like how they are using the paralytic disease virus (called poliomyelitis) to try to treat cancer. I also didn't like how the other treatments weren't talked about much and that they didn't talk much about other cancers like breast cancer. I did like that they had good results with 1/2 of the patients. Also that they have devoted their lives to finding cures for cancer and that they have found a promising cure for brain cancers. I think the future of using recombinant viruses to treat cancer is promising.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Trevor on how they did not say much about Brest cancer even though it is such a bad cancer. I also agree that the future is promising for treating cancer.
DeleteI agree I also don't like how they are using the virus. also it would have been nice if they had focused on some other cancers.
DeleteI agree with trevor, i also didn't like how they didn't talk about any other serious cancer like even breast cancer which is a very popular cancer lots of people have.
DeleteI agree that there's a promising future knowing that people are dedicated to curing and killing cancers.
DeleteOne of the most fascinating things that I had learned from the article was the use of a specific virus called PVS-RIPO. It could be used to help treat cancer by causing lysis or bursting open the cancer cells, which is amazing since this virus is the cause of a common cold but could still fight off cancer with such force. As well as the side effects of this virus, too much of the virus could cause the brain to swell which is a deadly side effect of this treatment. But one of the most fascinating things that definitely caught my eye was that these scientists are able to use a virus or disease that used to cause great damage to our body and turn it in to something that could create the end to specific types of cancer; however, after reading on there were a few things that had caused reasonable concern like when they had used the cholesterol to help the virus travel to the tumor came from cows, these cows could carry mad cow disease (zombie apocalypse?? jk). So why would we risk the potential of putting harmful viruses into our body when it is already trying to fight off cancer? See, sometimes these batches wouldn't even go through to be used. The problem is, people who don't have very long to live would try any experimental drug to at least give them the tiniest shot of living; but, if we put it through seven years of safety testing how would these people who only have months to live get the medicine they want. Another thing is they tested on monkeys, monkeys? yes, I know that they're just animals but they aren't the same as an actual real life human tester. I do believe that using recombinant viruses will be a step towards a big cure for cancer. Manipulating and changing viruses is something nature had done for millions of years, we evolve just like how cancer and viruses evolve but if we don't try to manipulate the viruses that could help us, the problem with cancer could grow out of control.
ReplyDeleteI agree, it's a little risky to put possibly even more harmful viruses into our body if there's already cancer. This would definitely be a concern to me!
DeleteSometimes it’s hard to rationalize why we learn specific things in school, but after reading the article describing the 60 minutes segment, I’m glad that I had a little background knowledge on Immunotherapy. As far as this treatment goes, I like that the patient’s immune system can be used to fight off tumors because then they will hopefully have less side effects in comparison to those who may be going through chemo. I also liked that the FDA made the Duke doctors go through a long testing period because the last thing our country needs is a reappearance of Polio. Moreover, I’m glad that the reporters were able to give some background on the doctors leading the treatment at Duke because they deserve a little recognition for all the time they have put in. On the other hand, I don’t like that the doctors conducting the trials haven’t completely figured out the correct dosage of Polio to give patients. I know that cancer patients have a limited amount of time but I would much rather die peacefully than because of a swelling brain. I also didn’t like that the reporters didn’t totally explain all aspects of the treatment at Duke. According to the article, a large part of the viral treatment wasn’t even covered. Finally although it was described as fairly optimistic, I think they should have taken a more serious approach because after all brain cancer is not completely eradicated. In the future I think that they will use Immunotherapy for treating breast, testicular, and prostate cancer.
ReplyDeleteI do not agree that it was important to learn about immunotherapy in class in order to understand the article: It was easy enough to understand the article without any background information, as it was written for the general public, and the author did a good job of explaining it.
DeleteI agree that immunotherapy will eventually be used to treat several other types of cancer too!
DeleteI also agree that it was a good idea to have gone through years of practicing and perfecting the virus. I think that this could be one of the reasons for it to work in the future.
DeleteI think that the article from Forbes was well thought out and had a lot of interesting points. One of the major things that I didn't like was the fact that some people wanted to use a dangerous virus to treat cancer. It's great that they've been trying to eradicate it since the '50s so why bring the virus back? I do think, however, that if the doctors could put the right amount of the virus into the patient so that it wouldn't harm them, then I suppose it's worth a shot. Another fact that caught my attention was that it's the patients own immune response that is more important than the initial bursting of cancer cells. This could be controversial because if the immune system doesn't respond, then the procedure might not work as well. I do think it is great that they are putting so much time and effort into trying to make this vaccine and safe and effective for humans as possible. I think that in the future, recombinant viruses will be more prominent than they are now because as time moves on, technology and knowledge grows, allowing for more advanced and accurate vaccines.
ReplyDeleteI agree that its great that someone took the time to figure out this recombinant virus. It will most likely take a great surge in the future.
DeleteI was wondering the same thing, wouldn't using a dangerous virus to treat cancer only make it worse? That's why scientists had to remove part of the polio gene and replace it with one of a harmless flu virus which would allow it to only reproduce in cancer cells avoiding paralysis. Only time will tell how effective this treatment will be.
DeleteI think what these men have accomplished is extraordinary! Friedman and Bigner were able to use the polio virus as a vaccination to help stimulate the body to fight off brain tumors. All the research and work they put into this is substantial. Three things that I didn't like about this story were that during the trial 11 of 22 patients didn’t make it through. Secondly, the FDA and NCI were concerned about the source of the cholesterol and made Friedman and Bigner do tests to make sure there was no traces of mad cow disease. Lastly, they had to do a lot of trails on monkeys! I think that using monkeys for a test subject is not the greatest idea. Three things I did like though is that they have seen improvement on patients who are using the vaccine. Also, they have many team members who are contributing to the trials to make sure the patients are doing well and just showing true compassion. A third thing I liked was that they put a lot of hard work and research into this new drug. I think the future of using recombinant viruses to treat cancer will be successful because after people watched 60 minutes the Duke website was being so visited that it was unreachable for the first 2 hours. Also, I feel that it will work most patients, but not all of them since 11 of the 22 human trials were unsuccessful.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Emily that using the recombinant of viruses will be successful in the future.
DeleteI also think that it will be successful in the future now that the treatment is receiving lots of attention from being on 60 minutes.
DeleteEmily, I agree totally with your response. Yes, it is horrible that half the patients were not helped. But then again, you have to think of the people it did save.
DeleteI agree, I think that the future is bright after this appeared on the show
DeleteI read the article from Forbes magazine and see great progress being made in cancer treatment. Even though the polio virus has had balanced results on its patients, there's potential that in the next five, ten, or even twenty years down the road that the ratio will lean in a positive direction. Our technology advances every day as new brilliant minds take charge and I have no doubt that when Friedmen and his coworkers retire, they will do so with the same optimism they've held throughout the trials of their treatment. I like the honesty Friendman has regarding the success of his trials and the goal of Phase I study. Overall I thought that the optimism that he and Bigner keep even after some disappoint is inspiring and crucial to their line of work. I didn't like the comparison to Frankenstein when referring to the virus because it has a negative, scary connotation. I also agree with the article that there needs to be a better balance of success and failed trials so that people watching have a good perspective of the pros and cons of such a treatment. They also could have been more clear that they are only in the experimental stages of using the polio virus to fight cancers in other areas of the body.
ReplyDeleteI completely agree with you about the Frankenstein comparison. It certainly makes the procedure seem more scary than it needs to be.
DeleteI agree, I feel that they need to keep finding more information about this virus to potentially help gather more information of treating cancer for the future.
DeleteTrue, I believe that they weren't extremely clear that the treatment was still undergoing their experimental process and I look like an idiot now. xD
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ReplyDeleteI think it’s great that scientists are making progress in the fight against cancer. By targeting specific cancers that more commonly result in death we are reducing the horror rested upon victims when they get the dreaded biopsy results. I like how they are searching for better ways to fight cancer, without the side effects and downsides of chemotherapy and radiation and with more accuracy to each individual than immunotherapy, and of course over all more promising results. I like that the chimeric virus technique specifically targets and eliminates the cancer cells using the poliovirus receptors. By further studying the scientists have found the difference between cancer cells and healthy cells other than just overpopulation tendencies. While the idea of virotherapy, the tagging and ridding of cancer cells sounds great, the deeper description of bursting or exploding cancer cells sounds like it would be painful to the patient. However the article also states that while killing off the glioblastoma cells, the healthy neurons are not affected. Another positive to the recombinant techniques is that normal cells with the same polio receptors that cancer cells produce aren't killed because they produce proteins differently. I especially like that the virotherapy triggers the immune system to act against the malignant tumor cells because if your immune system fights it off on its own it will be the most beneficial and will strengthen the immune system against further attacks. Another downside of the virotherapy is that the sudden huge immune response can cause major and dangerous swelling in the brain if not issued in the right dose. Another downside is that the virotherapy was very hard to master and it must be done right, and the more difficult something is to achieve you can infer the more expensive it will be as well, but what’s the price of a life?In the future I can see virotherapy using recombinant viruses to treat cancer as very beneficial, and may even be the long awaited key to a cure. Each year we make huge advancements in knowledge and technology and the better that gets the easier virotherapy will become and soon, hopefully, cancer won't be a reality to anyone.
I agree you, Grace. I also liked that they are trying to achieve a treatment that doesn't have negative side effects. It blows my mind that each day we are getting more advanced. Soon we will have flying cars and cancer will be in out distant past.
DeleteI totally agree. Using the polio virus to cure fatal cancers is amazing. i can't believe science has come so far.
DeleteI agree. Eventually there will be no more cancer because of the advancements of knowledge about it.
DeleteI totally agree, it's crazy to see that 30 years ago seems like centuries ago, because of how science has developed. Even saying that we still have a long way to go. Curing cancer would be so amazing and maybe using recombinant viruses is the key to that cure!
DeleteI agree with you completely; I am also concerned with brain swelling as a side effect, but as a whole I think this is a step in the right direction for cancer treatment.
DeleteIt's wonderful that they fight against cancer is almost won. With all the new technology coming out, I wouldn't be surprised if it was in a few years. I liked the article overall, but I didn't like that they didn't tell you how they are testing the polio virus on patients. We are a country that eliminated polio, are we going to have an outbreak if it is tested in a "public" lab? But, I did like the fact that they are trying to find a way to treat cancer with out the horrible effects of radiation and chemotherapy. A downside I see, is the virotherapy. The goal of that process is to explode the cancerous cells, but exploding in your body does not sound fun. I think about those old action movies where the character is standing on TNT and they explodes into bits and pieces. That does not sound fun to me. A positive side to virotherapy is that it supposedly doesn't hurt your healthy neurons. Another downside for virotherapy is that it can swell your brain if not handled correctly. A lot of money will go into a trial until they get it right. but how much will they need? How many trials will they have to endure? Finally, I liked how the healthy cells wouldn't get harmed because of recombinant techniques that kill the cancer cells because they produce protien different from how healthy cells do. I have high hopes for the recominant techniques fighting the war against cancer. Science has come a long way and has a long way to go, but we have the technology that just keeps getting more advanced. Hopefully, in the near future, we will defeat cancer.
ReplyDeleteI totally agree that it's great that were looking at a possible cure for brain cancer. I wouldn't be too worried about a breakout of polio, I'm sure the people have a quarantine system and strong building that was built for that kind of containment.
DeleteI completely agree with you. Fighting cancer is over. I also liked that you mentioned the fact that scientists are starting to test us with medication that will have less of an effect on us. I also agree with that this will take a lot if money, but with help, I believe that they will find a way to raise the money.
DeleteDrew, I never really thought of them being quarantined. That's makes sense.
DeleteChloe, I had a long comment in reply to your article but it didn't register that I was logged in and deleted it. So long story short, I agree that the article would be improved by deeper knowledge on what a polio receptor is and how they test for the virus. I also agree that the idea of cells exploding in your brain doesn't sound very fun, however the article states that besides the huge risk of brain swelling the surrounding cells are not harmed. I really hope we win the battle against cancer soon as you stated in your response. One question I had while reading the article was how the virotherapy could cause a swollen brain.
DeleteI am also concerned that they are using polio, something we have already eliminated, and reintroducing it into "public" labs. I feel like polio, if serious, can be just as uncomfortable as cancer. So, I have to ask, is it worth the risk? I mean, don't get me wrong, I think virotherapy can accomplish great things but it is a little sketchy.
DeleteAfter watching the 60 Minutes video, one of the most interesting things that spoke to me was when they explained the project to fight against the relentless brain cancer called glioblastoma. These doctors are infecting the tumors with polio, the virus that has crippled and killed for centuries. This virus may be some patients only hope to survive and defeat this deadly brain cancer. This new experiment has the possibility of changing thousands of lives and curing them from the brain cancer they are fighting. When they showed the first two patients that tried this trail and they had been cured from cancer, it made me feel amazing about all of the different options for curing cancer. Also, I liked hearing how the polio virus works to kills the cancer cells; they stimulated the virus and injected it into the cancerous tumor, so the polio virus triggers the immune system to start fighting against the cancer, eventually killing the cancerous cells in the brain. On the other hand, it was sad to watch the stories about the patients that agreed to try this experiment, but it ended up not working the same way it did on the first two patients, so eventually they died from glioblastoma. Additionally, I didn’t like seeing the effects the polio virus had on the patients during the process, but at the end once you saw the patients that were cured it was reassuring. Also, when they showed the tumors that were getting larger from the polio virus, it was heartbreaking to see the patients reaction because they know this trail is their last hope to survive. In the future I think that they will begin to use immunotherapy for treating many other types of cancer too.
ReplyDeleteI was really surprised when I read that the polio virus was being used to cure brain cancer. I agree that if possible immunotherapy should be used in the future to cure all cancer.
DeleteI was not expecting a deadly virus like polio to ever be used to cure brain cancer. However, it is amazing how scientists today can use something terrible to help save a person's life! I wonder if one day cancer will not be as harmful because we already have new treatments like immunotherapy that do not have as many side effects. Who knows what else scientists could discover in the future? One thing that I am disappointed about is that the article did not go into how other types of cancers can be cured as deeply. I am also curious about how much research is being done to prevent cancer because today cancer is pretty common and if science could stop cancer from happening then treatments wouldn't even be needed.
DeleteI agree that this treatment is very interesting and unheard if. I cant believe it has worked on patients, and has saved their lives. It is amazing how far scientists research has come. I hope we can someday cure cancer once and for all.
DeleteI think that this was pretty cool they would use the polio virus to kill cancer. One thing I liked was the ideas these researcher come up with. Another thing I like is the amount of thought and care these cancer researchers put in to there work just to cure a deadly disease that has never been cured before. I also liked how the tumors are invisible until they inject the virus then the immune system attacks it and the cancer goes away. I disliked the fact that they would give people H.I.V because that is weird and a bad sickness. I also did not like the risks these new treatments come with but i guess someone has to test it. I finally did not like the Donna Creg story because that just must stink when your promised something and become much worse and die in a terrible state. I think the future of cancer cures is advanced surgery that removes everything with one scan so if it keeps coming then you keep going back.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Matt it is pretty cool how they are trying to cure cancer. Also I like his thinking on the future of cancer.
DeleteI agree. These scientists truly do have a wide variety of ideas. I also question how they come up with these crazy answers to things. Do they just say " I'll try this and if it works, hurray"? Or is it a more sufficticated process in which they go through to get to their conclusion?
DeleteI thought this article was pretty interesting in the way that the race against cancer is almost over. I liked how they treated the polio virus and only contained it to about three countries, but since it was wiped out i didn't like the idea that they used the virus to treat cancer. i also didn't like how they talked about only treated one type of cancer. What about breast cancer and more severe cancers? I think it's good that they have found more cures for the types of brain cancers. Another positive outlook on this is that they found a way to kill the cancer cells without killing the healthy cells. I think that was their problem all along. The last idea I didn't like from the article was that 11 of the the patients that were tested didn't make it through alive and they should've tested it more. I think that the future of recombinant is trust worthy and will work better with a little more testing.
ReplyDeleteMaybe they can use the techniques used for this procedure to help cure the other cancers like breast cancer. It will be hard to find a way to end all cancer since there are so many different kinds.
DeleteI think that it is good that we are making steps towards fighting off cancer. I really found it interesting that the scientists are beginning to find less harmful forms of treating cancer that is more precise than immunotherapy and they are researching something the less harmful side effects as radiation and chemotherapy. I also liked that the scientists went through a long course of trials just to make sure that what they are doing is safe for others. I especially like that the virotherapy triggers the immune system to fight against malignant tumor cells. While I like this idea, I think that the idea of bursting cells sounds a bit violent and painful. Also, I am a little alarmed by the fact that the scientists were working with such a harmful virus. I also did not like that the article did not explain how these scientist were conducting these such experiments. Each year it seems that we make huge advancements in the development of fighting off cancer, and I am unsure about our future with recombinant techniques.
ReplyDeleteI thought this was a very interesting article. I like how they are trying to find a way to treat cancer, by doing so without the negative effects of chemo and radiation. However, the fact that they are "exploding" cancerous body cells during virotherapy seems concerning to me. Just the thought of that gives me a not-so-great feeling. Another upside on the other hand is that the healthy body cells won't be harmed, thanks the recombinant techniques that end up killing cancer cells. I also like how the chimeric virus technique specifically targets and gets rid of the cancer cells using poliovirus receptors. During the polio virus when using a vaccination to help stimulate the body to fight off brain tumors, it was unfortunate that half of the test subjects didn't make it. That's something I didn't like about this. I also think they should try to somehow improve the number of successes if any way possible, because this may concern people about the treatment.
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ReplyDeleteIt’s always amazing to see something in a different light - like using something negatively viewed as something that can be positive, even beneficial. It didn’t occur to me about using a virus to treat anything, let alone cancer. It just shows how brilliant some people are.
The article begins by explaining the problem, doubts, uncertainties, and possible solution of using viruses as cancer cures. Some things definitely stood out to me. For example, the idea of using the polio virus to treat cancer. Also, human cancers develop a protective shield that make them invisible to our immune system. This covers their growth, and the body doesn’t see it as a threat. Lastly, many advances in treating cancer have been made over the last 100 years. Technology amazes me, partly because I can’t even begin to understand.
However, there were some things I did not like. For instance, when the virus gets into some normal cells that don’t have the receptor, it’s damaging. Plus, though I know it’s necessary, it’s still sad they have to test the treatment on monkeys. Finally, the effectiveness of the virus was only effective on half the participants. If it really was great, it should work on more than 50%. Please don’t get me wrong, it still saved 50% of the people and everyone’s body is a bit different, but I wish it worked on more.
In all, I predict the future of using recombinant viruses to treat cancer looks encouraging. Firstly though, they need to test new treatments, sadly on animals, until they find a satisfying treatment with no harmful side effects and that is, for the majority, effective. This might take many years to complete, but the idea will become procedure. The scientists have a start, they just need to keep experimenting and concluding. It seems like they’re on the right track.
In response to Bethany, I too agree that the recombinant viruses could in the near future treat cancer.
DeleteI agree with you that it is very sad that we have to test the treatments on animals. I hope in the future we'll be able to not have to conduct such tests, and find newer, safer ways to do so!
DeleteI think that it's great that we have found what looks like a possible cure for cancer. It'll be a great day when cancer is no longer a threat to this society or any others. My question is, how much does something like that cost, it has to be an absurd amount, based only on what it promises to give. And, I'm sure it's worth every last penny that those people paid to see the last of life without being rushed. I wonder why someone working on a cure for cancer thought, "I should inject this cancer patient with a virus that has the potential to kill them," seems like backwards thinking to me, but what ever works.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Drew that it's great we found a possible cure to cancer. I also agree with him about about the financial situation with Drew. This experiment will be expensive but hopefully it pays off in the end. I hope that a cure to cancer is found out of the poliovirus.
DeleteI agree, that using Polio to kill cancer is ironic, but I don't think it would cost too much, as they could continue to have the virus reproduce in labs. Radiation, and chemo chemicals, however, are (most likely) harder to obtain than Polio.
DeleteIn response to Drew, I also thought it was great that we found another possible cure for cancer, but like you said it could be very costly and over priced.
DeleteI think using the polio virus to treat cancer is amazing! Not only is it great that it doesn't have bad side effects, like chemotherapy and radiation would, but it's also amazing they can use it to treat a terrible brain cancer, and half the patients were "cured". It's also great that virotherapy doesn't damage healthy cells, like chemotherapy. A drawback for me is that it took so long to eliminate polio in our country, so why would we put it back into the public? Couldn't polio spread and start harming healthy people again? Lastly virotherapy targets the cancer cells, and makes them explode. The word "explosion" sounds dangerous and painful; wouldn't it be painful to the patient? Overall virotherapy sounds like it is an amazing option for people who have fatal cancer; even though it has some downsides it has enough positives.
ReplyDeleteI also was wondering why they would risk putting polio back into the public.
DeleteI think using the polio virus is amazing as well! And Genius!! It is crazy that it works better than chemotherapy and radiation because it doesn't have those side affects!
DeleteI also agree how using polio was a great idea. I believe that "exploding" the cancer cells might be a little scary, but I didn't see anything saying how the 50% of the cured people were harmed with side effects.
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DeleteI agree with you, this is good as it doesn't have bad side effects like most cancer treatments. I think that the treatment is good especially since this is a very hard type of cancer to treat.
I agree it would be scary if a new strain of polio were to surface especially because it took a long time to get rid of it and then we bring a new strain of it into existence.
DeleteI completely agree Kate! It is very risky and scary to think that Polio could make a comeback! It does seem like that could be dangerous! But if I remember in the video, one of the doctor's had said how he altered the Polio virus in order to allow it to not reproduce. I think that would prevent it from spreading!
DeleteI was thinking the same thing why would we want to put polio back out in the public after putting all the time money and effort out there to get rid of it?
DeleteI found the article very interesting. I like how we are trying to find better ways to treat cancer. I however I don’t like how we are using the paralytic virus to do it though. I also did not like how they did not go into a lot of detail about how they are testing the polio virus on cancer patients. However I did like how the virus infects the tumor and remover the protective shield as they called it to kill the tumor. Overall I think the use of recombinant viruses to treat cancer is going to become either a great tool in treating cancer or it could cause more harm than good
ReplyDeleteI think the new form of cancer treatment is great. It really helped stop and even kill the cancerous cells. It is really incredible how it doesn't harm the healthy cells like chemo or radiation does. The one problem that I have with this is, why risk putting the polio virus back into the public after all the time, money, and energy that was spent trying to eliminate it?
ReplyDeleteThis article is incredible. To see what they have already accomplished to defeat this terrible disease is amazing. However, there were a few things that stuck out and seemed as though they weren't right. For one, they are testing this new theory on patients. The fact that these people's lives are being put at risk is a serious concern. Another thing that is alarming is the fact that they are comparing this drug to Frankenstein is concerning. After reading Frankenstein and imagining the horrifying things that occurred create a very negative feeling. A third thing that I did not like in the article was the fact that only 11 of the 22 patients were successful. That is only 50% which isn't such a good ratio. However, there were good things in the article as well. For one, the healthy cells were not harmed during the treatment. This was a very positive side effect. Also the immune system was used to help get rid of the bad cells when the virus penetrated the cell. Finally the doctors helped the patients the whole way and made sure to have very frequent check-ups to make sure that everything was going right. In the near future, I hope we are able to defeat cancer and advance ourselves enough that this disease is no longer a problem.
ReplyDeleteOne interesting thing I learned was that doctors are injecting polio to the tumors. Before this I didn't really know what polio was so I looked it up. I found that polio can cripple people and kill them. This surprised me and I want to know where doctors got the idea to do this. Another thing I learned is that doctors at this hospital continue to be positive and use the word miracle. Usually doctors don;t get the hopes of their patients up. I learned that doctors have to be very careful to keep the polio in that one spot where the tumor is. The doctors can actually see the tumor and the polio virus in the brain. I think this is so interesting. I keep researching stuff like this because I find it so interesting. I think that using these viruses will excite many doctors and in the future become very well known. I think specialists all over will begin to use this knowledge and take it deeper. I believe that we are going to be hearing more and more of this as time moves forward.
ReplyDeleteAfter reading the article, I thought it was very interesting. What grabbed my attention was the fact that a virus that causes the childhood paralytic disease called poliomyelitis is being used to treat cancer. Another interesting fact I came across was that using the right amount of this virus, the researchers could kill glioblastoma cells in culture without affecting normal neuronal cells. This is very interesting to me because this is very beneficial but what makes me lenient is the fact that it stated “if you use the right amount” I wonder if you don’t use enough or use too much what the affects would be? This is definitely a downside to the use of this virus. Later on in the article it stated that the patient’s own immune response is more important than the initial bursting of the cancer cells. I find it very interesting that this virus is able to do this to the cancer cells and how the immune system is so important and powerful. Even though there are many benefits to this use of the virus I don’t agree with the fact that when the clinically-qualified batches of virus were made, the FDA required seven more years of safety testing, up to and including administration to three dozen monkeys, before the first human subject was permitted in 2011. I personally don’t like the idea of testing viruses on animals and against it. I wondered if this virus could be damaging to any cells but stated in the article it says when the virus gets into the normal cells that it’s not as damaging. This makes me wonder what amount of damage it causes. It also makes me worried that it could lead to a lot of harm to the cells causing more damaged than expected. Overall, I feel that this virus can be very beneficial to the future because if it can get rid of cancerous cells, this knowledge can only become even more useful will more experiments.
ReplyDeleteI think it’s pretty cool that we can find a cure for cancer. I like that they are trying to cure that doesn’t have any negative side effects. If we can have a cure to cancer within a couple years that would be great. The poliovirus is what made this happen. I’m surprised that they found something like this that can cure some types of cancer, maybe. I hope nothing goes wrong and they’re right about this, so nobody gets hurt while on this. They have to be absolutely sure about this and make sure it definitely works. It’s weird to think that the fight against is almost over and it’s awesome to think about. If cancer ends soon, it would be a good chapter in human history and the person who found the cure will known as a hero. It would cost a lot of money to do all of the research though and if it fails then all that money goes down the drain. I hope it does work and it would be great if cancer was no more.
ReplyDeleteIn the beginning of the show, the reporter vastly understated the progress made in the field of cancer treatments-- an opening I did not appreciate very much. Television shows tend to, not always truthfully, portray data in ways that appear to have positive implications or help prove a point, like this, so I found it nice that the program made sure to mention both the positive and the negative results of the test. Although these statistics were accurately displayed, they were overshadowed by the exaggeration of the success stories in relation to the stories of death. Additionally, I did not think it right for the the interviewers to try so hard to get the scientists to use the word “cure”, but I did like that the scientists refused to do so. Because there is a good chance that the show did not answer every question everyone had, it was also a plus that the contact information for answers was made easily available to viewers. On a different note, given the data, the future of the utilization of viruses to attack cancer cells seems promising to me, and I’m glad that it is being pursued so thoroughly.
ReplyDeleteI am glad to hear that in the article, they are finding new ways to treat cancer without the side effects of chemotherapy and radiation. Radiation kills all cells surrounding it, luckily, virotherapy only targets and kills cancer cells. If I had cancer however, I would not feel so good hearing that virotherapy "explodes" the cancer cells. That could cause some major problems to the organs near the cancer cells. Another thing I liked about about the article is how they are using polio to fight the cancer cells. It reminds me of the saying 'fight fire with fire'. Since we have stopped the threat of polio once, I think that if we inject it in one's body, it could be easily removed. Another downside to this experiment is that it had only worked on 50%. Yes, it did work for half the patients, but if this country and the rest of the world want to get rid of cancer, we are going to need more than half the patients to be cured. In conclusion, virotherapy was able to save 50% of their patients without harming them, but what about the other 50%? How are they going to be able to overcome cancer?
ReplyDeleteI think this is very interesting. Technology is getting so advanced nowadays, and it's fascinating how much we can do with it. I enjoyed hearing about how the polio virus was injected into the tumor and how in result, the tumor shrunk. Since we just learned about how cancer works, this procedure makes complete sense to me. I also liked how they kept the cancer patients well informed. The anxiety the people were experiencing must be unimaginable, and the fact that they always were kept in the loop during their procedure was good. Another thing I enjoyed was simply knowing that there are very intelligent people out there working very hard to cure this awful illness. Sometimes it seems like scientists are all talk, so to see them actually walking the walk is satisfying. However, I didn't like how they treated the lady that ended up dying; it seemed like they gave up on her. I also didn't like how much risk was involved in the beginning of the experiment... That first girl was very brave. Lastly, I didn't like how they tested on animals. I know that it is necessary sometimes, but it still doesn't seem right. As for using viruses like polio to combat cancer, I think that this is just the tip of the iceberg.
ReplyDeleteI read the article about how scientists have engineered a poliovirus which has had positive effects with cancer patients. This is very interesting because Poleo is a virus that is devastating and is well hated, so it's remarkable that scientists have found a positive thing that the virus can do. Three things I liked about the article was that about half of people who received these treatments went into remission. Another good thing was that this virus helps cure certain types of brain cancer. Lastly, I liked that the article talked about how the doctors who ran the clinical trial took on the worst and hardest tumors and that they helped half of their patients who had little time to live. Three negatives from this article were that it wasn't as specific and descriptive as it could have been, and I thought it was too general. I didn't like was that it was very opinionated with the author interjecting opinions between facts. Lastly, the article talks about the cure in a negative sort of way, though the author left contact information, the author claimed that this might not be a cure for cancer. My opinion is that this is good. I love the show Greys Anatomy and in one episode, Baily had deactivated an HIV virus and injected it into a boy and it cured him, so I think that this is good.
ReplyDeleteWho would of ever of thought we could use a life threatening virus to kill of another life threatening cancer. I mean you would expect the negatives to completely weight out the positives. But they don't! Its also great to know that this virotherapy doesn't destroy your healthy cells but your does destroy the non healthy ones. If it took a long time to get the polio out of our people then why are we putting it back in. If virotherapy targets and explodes cells, then wouldn't that just cause the given patient to be in even more distress. Well overall this virotherapy sounds like a great idea and I'm all for it.
ReplyDeleteI think using the polio virus to get the immune system to fight a tumor is a genius idea. I think it's amazing that they were able to engineer the polio virus into a flu virus that won't reproduce unless in a cancer cell. I liked that this medical treatment was able to save multiple brave people’s lives. I don't think I would be brave enough to allow a cancer treatment that had never been used on humans. I liked how the animals that were given the treatment didn't have signs of polio. Lastly I liked how doctors were able to find a safe dosage of the virus, although I didn't like this discovery came after someone died. Another thing I didn't like was that about the treatment was that there were only 22 treated and 11 died. Also I didn't like how this treatment was used on monkeys. As for the future of using recombinant viruses to treat cancer no one can say how effective it will be. The fact that 50% of patients who have received the treatment died is not too promising.
ReplyDeleteI think that it is great that we now have a way to treat cancer that will not greatly affect non cancer cells. one thing I found scary was that the article said that the oncolytic virotherapy causes the cells to burst open. Could this cause damage to other cells around the cancer cells or even cause spreading of cancer? I also can not help but think how expensive will this treatment be because chemo therapy and radiation are expensive for people. If we are to use the polio virus to stop the spread of cancer will it have any long term damage to non cancerous cells? In the article it said that if there is too much virus administered then it could cause a massive swelling of the brain, what can they do for the patients that are given too much of the virus? Is there a way to stop the swelling of the brain?
ReplyDeleteThe polio virus seems risky to use to kill brain tumors because of the people who became partially paralyzed, and died from it. I don't like how there is this risk when taking this treatment. Also, I don't like that this is not a solid medical treatment and that it is experimental because then there is no guarantee that it will work. Lastly, I don't like that this medication is the polio disease, and it can cause paralysis when used as a medication for cancer. Although, I do like that this medication can, and has saved lives, it may lead to further and safer medications, and that it is a breakthrough in fighting cancer. I think the future of this type of medication will lead to a way to cure cancer.
ReplyDeleteThis video was incredibly interesting! I can’t believe the treatments that are developing, it gives me so much hope! The three things I liked about the video were 1)The fact that the one doctor (Fritz) was the second patient to try this new, risky treatment and it worked! It just shows how you have to have faith in what you believe, and his faith was so inspiring! 2) I loved to see how hopeful and positive Nancy Justice was! She was just the sweetest lady and I certainly hope that her tumor completely goes away! 3) It was so amazing and beautiful to the Stefani walk to go get her diploma! I can’t imagine how terrifying it would be to have a brain tumor and she was so strong throughout her treatment and totally deserved to be so successful! The three things I didn’t like 1) The fact that the people’s immune systems made their brain swell so much! It was just such a risky side effect and could have really damaged their brains. 2) I also hated to see that poor woman who had the overdose of polio. The video of her talking about how she regretted the treatment made me tear up a little. She just looked so defeated! 3) It also makes me so sad that 11 people lost their battle with the brain tumor. They were probably so hopeful that the treatment was going to work, but it didn’t! It’s just so tragic. And finally, I don’t know what the future of cancer treatments are going to be, but whatever they are, I just hope that they work!
ReplyDeleteI think that this is an awesome discovery. It is very ironic that a virus that caused so many people harm can actually confront something as powerful as cancer. I really liked the showing of how he changed the virus to make it effective for cancer cells, I think that that is the key part of this whole trial. I really love the whole positive spirits of the cancer patients. Even when things are rough they always keep a smile on their faces. It was also interesting that it took so long to work. I wouldn't really say its a bad thing because they have a longer time period to live but it goes to show that most things don't just work right away. I didn't like though how they tried to use a higher dosage. I think they should have just left it the way it was and it could have worked better. Overall I think it looks very promising and I hope it can be successful for others.
ReplyDeleteI thought this was moderately interesting in my case.
ReplyDeleteI did like the effort for making a treatment for GBM is persistent and extreme, though. I think a span of 20 years show that this treatment is effective rather than a money magnet. Also, I liked how this treatment doesn't affect normal cells like chemotherapy does. This eases cancer patients from the side effects. Also, the treatment is not that damaging because cancer cells don't have the receptors normal cells do to fight off the treatment.
However, what I didn't like was that they were inserting more viruses. This felt like they were interbreeding diseases and could lead to some faulty solutions such as a more severe disease. Also, I don't like how a person's immune system affects survival rate. I feel like there should be a better treatment that is effective to everyone. And finally, their pursuit to find the right dose seems pretty sketchy because this means that the treatment could negatively affect test subjects.
Anyways, the future of eradicating cancer seem slim in a distance, but maybe if we use a big telescope we could see the elimination of cancer and possible all diseases by finding out all the causes and preventing them.
I was amazed by the fact that they used a virus, once incredibly harmful to humans, to mark a cancerous cell, so the immune system can finish the job. I thought that was so cool, I already told my dad about it. My main concern is; what happens if it evolves to be able to reproduce in normal cells? It could kill the patient, or release a new strand of Polio, which is concerning either way. If they can be sure that won't happen, then it could become a huge advantage in the fight against cancer!
ReplyDeleteInitially I thought it was, dangerous and just a risky last attempt because for some it was the only other option. I didn’t like how only some people have tried this improved polio drug, and the fact that if the doctors don’t go inject in the correct place with the polio, then that could be detrimental to the patient. Another thing I didn’t like at first is that scientist are taking terrible viruses, we tried so hard to make extinct, are being experimented with. It’s awesome that we they are going out of the box to find cures for cancer, but if an experiment got unleashed on the population, that could turn into mass chaos.
ReplyDeleteWhat I thought was super interesting was that this modified polio ‘seeks out and attaches to a receptor that is found on the surface of the cells that make up nearly every kind of solid tumor’. That’s so cool and amazing that it targets only cancerous cells. Also the fact that this scientist figured out how to modify the polio and removed a key genetic sequence and then repaired the damage with a harmless common cold virus. So now the modified polio is able to survive but not paralyze or cause death because it can not reproduce in normal cells but can only reproduce in tumors! That is an incredible scientific feat. Also the fact that the polio causes an infection that inflames the tumor and the shroud/protective layer, so now the person's own immune system can go in and save the day. It’s all so interesting and amazing what these scientist have accomplished.
Because this modified polio worked, I believe the future of using recombinant viruses is a plausible cure for cancer. It’s awesome that the polio virus worker, but I don’t know how scientists will find a way to use other viruses, it will take time, but the end result will be satisfactory.
I also find it incredible that this disease only seeks out the cancerous cells that must be attacked instead of going after both healthy and unhealthy cells. It's such a great thing considering the awful side effects of cancer and radiation when all cells are attacked in the process.
DeleteI thought the article was very interesting. I thought it was weird how they are trying to solve the cure for cancer with a virus that no longer exists in our country, but I like this idea. However the process is long and stressful, I don’t like how a tad too much of cholesterol could end in a disaster with the patient. And once again there have been minor advancements in the years, however I like the big picture. I also liked how in the past years, about half of the patients had positive results but this number has not yet increased. There was no case for more common cancers like breast or liver, only unique ones. Overall I think the recombinant viruses could be a big hit in the future because in the early phases of creating this cure, signs show it is favorable.
ReplyDeleteI think it is outstanding that we have found this break through in cancer research but at the same time where you may be eliminating some of the side affects of treatments such as chemo and radiation I find it concerning that this virus that we have been working hard to eradicate since the 50's is now being brought back into the U.S. for these cancer experiments. I liked how in the article talked about what it liked as well as what they did not like. The plus side to the polio virus is you will not have the side affects of chemo or radiation but what is from stopping this virus that we are using to treat patients from spreading to other healthy humans, wasn't that why we were trying to eradicate in the first place to keep it away from the public? But if controlled i am sure that this will be an extremely helpful and useful treatment in the future.
ReplyDeleteAfter watching the video, I was completely impressed and shocked by the use of pollo to cure cancer. I think it is really cool that we now have another option and possibility to save more and more lives. I think it is also cool that something people would never in their lives think to use for anything good, was used to cure cancer on patients that thought they had limited months to live. It is also really cool to think that one day cancer may not be a threat to society. Cancer has taken so many lives, and it would be unbelievable to not have any worry about something that has been so life-threatening and terrible. Although the video had many positives, there is a few negatives about this. One negative could possibly be the price of this cure. Although I do not know how much this cure costs, I can assume that something so new must be pretty high priced and I would not like to think that while trying to stay alive, you also have to pay pricey bills. I also think it is scary that only 50% of the people were saved. Dont get me wrong, It is amazing that this treatment helped that many people, but I wish it helped more. Lastly, it is scary to think that if the pollo is spread to other places besides the location of the tumor, it can be very dangerous for the patient. Pollo is very dangerous, and it would be scary if the pollo was not helping the patient but it was hurting the patient even more. overall, this treatment is very scary and not completely able to cure all patients, but it has many positive effects that can, and have saved many lives.
ReplyDelete(Watched the 60 minutes video)
ReplyDeleteI liked:
1) Stephanie's story. It was the first ever trial and she was perhaps completely cured. That was a hugely promising outcome for a test in such an early stage.
2) How they described the creation of the immunotherapy. The visuals they used to illustrate how the doctors modified the polio virus so it couldn't infect healthy cells.
3) The other woman's story. She had two sons and I was very happy that the polio worked for her as well. It was amazing how the tumor was being destroyed from the inside out.
I didn't like:
1) The Idaho woman's story. It was extremely depressing to see how much she suffered, but it really puts into perspective how new immunotherapy is and how much it needs to be tested before it can be distributed to more people.
2) The fact that it will take so long to perfect immunotherapy. With the stories highlighted in 60 Minutes, it seems like it could save so many lives, but it will still take years and years before it will be approved.
3) That the video didn't go into more detail about the deaths of the polio trial. I would like to know more about what happened to them to see how hopeful this remedy really is.
Overall, the future is very bright for immunotherapy and polio treatment. The successful cases bring a lot of hope to a lot of people, and hopefully in the many years to come this could be the idea that finally knocks out cancer for good.
I found the it interesting, and quite ironic, that they would be using the virus which causes the paralytic disease, poliomyelitis, which they have been trying to eradicate to cure cancer. This could cause the patient to get sick. Although it may be bad they are using it in a good way. I like how they are able to control it a bit more and to only inject it into certain cells without it spreading. Also, I found it wrong to relate the virus to Frankenstein for it was not created from something old because it was already alive and real. They just changed a bit of it. I also found the fact that they did not talk much about the other cancers not so great. They mostly focused on the cancer they could fix which is a brain tumor. I like that they are going for a serious one such as in the brain and it could help a lot of people but it still only focused on one. Lastly, I liked how they are being extra careful and taking precautions to ensure that the patient does not get swelling in his brain. I believe that if this is a success and has no major bad side they will begin to use this as soon and they can ensure that it works on either one, all, or most cancer types.
ReplyDeleteI think it’s really cool that we can create vaccines today and can cure viruses and can even make the world free from that virus. Firstly, one of the things I liked about the article was that they gave you technical background, so if you’re foreign to the subject then you’ll know what the article is talking about. Secondly, I liked how they used the rhinovirus to figure out other things about the poliovirus. Thirdly, I like how in the article they talked about how they can put a virus in you that will trigger your immune response to attack the tumor cells. Some things I did not like about the article was that they used a lot of fancy terms in which they did not explain all of them, tumors make a shield of protective measures that make them invisible to your immune system, and that the immune response must be carefully manipulated or else too much virus can cause swelling of the brain which isn’t good. I think in the future once we find more ways to use the recombinant viruses and make sure they work without harsh side effects, then it would be used more often instead of other treatments.
ReplyDeleteI thought the Forbes article was interesting in how it talked about trying to use viruses to treat cancer. I liked how the scientist and doctors devoted their lives to the cancer research and are trying to make it safe. But they still are not sure how much dosage is correct. This could tie in with their immune system on whether or not they could fight off tumors. However, 50% of the patients however have gotten good results. What I also thought that was interesting was that normal cells with the same polio receptors which cancer cells produce are not killed because they produce proteins differently. Although, there are some treatments that do not sound fun like virotherapy in how the process is to explode the cancerous cells. Overall what I didn't like the most is that since these treatments are new, the doctors don't really know how strong the percentage of the trial to work. Finally, I think that the future of using recombinant viruses to treat cancer is strong because without the trials of error there would be no success. Knowledge and technology keep advancing and can easily make cancer behind us in the future.
ReplyDeleteVirotherapy seems like it has great potential, but, at the moment, it seems that their claims for the treatment are a little far-fetched as it is still in its experimental stage. One aspect of virotherapy that I can respect is that it provides one last option for those with brain cancer instead of receiving the heartbreaking line, “I’m sorry, you have to weeks to live and there’s nothing we can do. If anything, it boosts optimism on surviving cancer in general. Although, the survival rate is only 50%. Sure 50% is better than, say, 3%, but I feel like with 50% there is nothing entirely conclusive. I don’t know, it sounds strange that your chances for surviving have the same probability of flipping a coin and getting heads. Another thing I like is that the entire process is less harsh than conventional methods of treatment. But unlike normal side effects, like hair loss and nausea, this has the possibility to cause swelling of the brain which seems much more unpleasant. Also the exploding of cells doesn’t seem too pleasant either. On the upside virotherapy rarely attacks healthy cells which can also serve as a mood booster. Who wouldn’t feel more optimistic if they didn’t feel weak and tired all the time. A concern of mine is regarding the fact that we are using viruses that we have already eradicated. Particularly, I’m concerned with the possibility of it being commercialized. I feel like having several patients in one room getting the polio virus injected isn’t a good idea. In which case, how would you contain it? Again, I do feel like virotherapy has great potential it just needs to develop its studies further. We live in the 21st Century, so I believe we will make more advancements in cancer treatments whether that be immunotherapy, virotherapy, or something entirely new.
ReplyDeleteI read the Forbes article What '60 Minutes' Got Right And Wrong On Duke's Polio Virus Trial Against Glioblastoma. While interesting, the whole article was rather dry for my tastes, and felt more like it was a written out lecture instead of something that was supposed to attract my interest. I think it really is amazing on how scientists are using something that had been thought to be all bad, and something that we see the need to eradicate, and using it for good and for a new, creative purpose. I also think it is really awesome how we’re using our own immune system to fight cancer, because that is an easier time of treatment than chemotherapy, which actually weakens the body’s immune system. I think it is important that the FDA is strict with things such as new treatments, and I don’t like how flippant the author was while writing this article. It felt as though he was treating it as a hurdle to overcome instead of something to actually make sure this is safe for people to use. However, I also agree with the author of the article that if the 60 Minutes episode did say that they haven’t made great progress in fighting cancer recently, than that’s obviously not true. Many people are fully cured from cancer and never have to deal with it again thanks to some of the most recent treatments. Finally, I think the future of using viruses to treat cancer will be one of two things: either it will become something so commonly used it becomes the “cure” for cancer, or something will happen that will close the public’s mind to virus treatments entirely, and it will only be used sparsely.
ReplyDeleteI think that it's a really interesting approach to go against cancer with another disease, like polio. As interesting as it is, I don't like that using a paralytic disease was the chosen way to kill cancer cells. I like the fact that we're at least making strides to eliminate something as major as cancer, even if it only works in one area of the body. However, even with this being done I don't like that it's only focused on one area of the body when it seems like there can be more done. Another dislike to go along with this is the amount of time that's taken to get these results. It's progress but that over fifteen years is a long time. Also, I like the fact that the new treatment helped save half of the patients it was used on. This at least gives a sign that something is working. Finally, something else I was fascinated by and liked was the effort put into trying to making a change even if it didn't have the best outcome. The future of using recombinant looks long, yet hopeful.
ReplyDeleteI read the article, and it was pretty interesting. I'm not sure if I agree with the uses of paralytic virus to help treat cancer. The article also left out a lot of important cancers that I feel should've been mentioned. On the positive side, they have spent a great portion of their lives trying to treat cancer, and that hard work shows through half of the patients having positive results. Also they have found a reliable cure for brain cancers, just another example of their successes. This leads me to believe that the future is bright for the use of recombinant viruses.
ReplyDeleteI completely agree with Kyle they definitely left out some very important cancers, some more severe than the brain cancer
DeleteI noticed too, that it only really treated one type of cancer. Although it is great that it is safe and all, it is disappointing that the rest of the people have to use other methods. I agree that cancer treatment is always on the rise, with new forms of treatment coming out every year. If they could get a universal cure, that would be a win for everyone.
DeleteIf we were able to cure brain cancers the world would be a completely different place. So many family's nightmares would be put to rest. The things I like are that we will be able to cure brain cancer. Another is how they are stopping it, i think it is awesome. I like how they are putting their priorities and the most severe type of brain cancers. Things I don't like are how they are not accepting payment, what they are doing is incredible. There is not much to dislike, they are doing something incredible. I think there is a bright future for stopping cancer.
ReplyDeleteI thought this article was extremely interesting. One of the most interesting things that I read in this article was that they gave us background information on polio. This allows us to know how we used to use it and how we have changed that. Another piece of information that I thought was interesting was that they use polio to allow our immune system to realize that there's an invader. Last, I thought that it is amazing that they think that they have finally found a cure for cancer. What I didn't like was that the scientists don't know the exact amount of polio to give to a person. If given too much, then the brain can swell. Another thing that I didn't enjoy was that eleven patients had past away throughout this process. And last, I didn't like that they only focused on one cancer, the brain tumor. I thought that they could have given us a variety. I think that in the future, polio will be the cure for cancer and they will find out the right amount of polio to insert into the body.
ReplyDeleteIt seemed as if there was so much going for this new treatment. It doesn't destroy or damage surrounding cells, it can kill selected cells, and lastly, it can kill the cancer efficiently along with helping the immune system to react. Unfortunately, we cannot ignore the risks of having your brain swell if the treatment is not done right. Also, I hope that in the near future, the treatment can be used for all types of cancer, not just this single type. I also think that it is shocking that one tiny mishap can cause this virus thing to give a person mad cow's disease. It seems to have a lot of strings attached if one was to produce it and then use it. Soon in the future, cancer will likely be controlled. Not stopped of course, but it will have some sort of universal treatment. One that is safe and efficient for the user.
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ReplyDeleteIn the Forbes article I find it fascinating how they plan on using the virus that causes poliomyelitis,which they have been trying to eradicate from this planet since the 50’s, to cure cancer. It’s crazy how something that can cause so much damage can be used to get rid of a possibly worse factor than itself. As far as I know it doesn’t have the awful side effects that come along with chemotherapy and radiation,but I still think that if we have been trying to get rid of this disease for such a long time then why would we bring it back and use it in our hospitals? Is there a possibility that it could spread to the families of the patients and spread even more? I’m not sure if they consider that a possible risk. Even if there may be risks would it be worth it? I find it incredible how healthy cells are not harmed with this treatment, and that is such a huge breakthrough! Also, the immune system gets rid of the bad cells once they are attacked by the virus, which is yet another great thing. Overall, this could be yet another great advancement in the treatment of cancer.
I didnt like that certain people would refuse to accept the treatment because they think it causes autism even though its been proven not to. I also thinks its dangerous to bring back a vicious virus that left so many people paralyzed. They also said mad cow disease is a virus, which isnt true. Its a prion. However, i liked the idea of using a polio virus to cure cancer. Brain cancer is dangerous and hard to perform surgery on so it would beneficial. I like our advances in medicine and seeing how far we come, its nice to know theres constant advances. I also like duke so im was cool seing them doing stuff
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